Feb 02 2010
Health care is not dead, but our friend is
Melanie Shouse died Saturday.
For many of us at USAction and TrueMajority, which had featured Melanie in a video action alert urging Congress to pass health care reform, the email message came as a surprise both somber and shocking:
Good Afternoon,
My niece, Melanie Shouse, was recently profiled on your website. I am sorry to say that Melanie lost her battle with breast cancer early this afternoon. We are sad to lose her, but we have promised to carry on the fight for health care reform in her honor. She will have a memorial in Overland Missouri dedicated to her. Please mention her passing on your website, she touched many lives before she gave her own.
Regards,
Elizabeth Holtzman-Goodden
To Elizabeth, and to Melanie, I’m sorry. I’m sorry we didn’t get health care reform done sooner. I’m sorry that health care isn’t more affordable and accessible for millions of Americans who need it.
Melanie had health insurance coverage. Sort of. Back in 2005 she was an entrepreneur struggling to grow her small business. She could only afford a catastrophic health insurance policy with co-pays and deductibles nearing $10,000.
So when the lump came, denial seemed the most pragmatic option. When diagnosis finally followed, the cancer had spread through her body to bone, lungs and liver. It was Stage 4 breast cancer.
At this point, Melanie had some coverage, in the form of Missouri’s Medicaid program – a public option, if you will. And she got better, for a spell. But then her private carrier denied coverage for a treatment her oncologist had recommended. She appealed, to no avail. “To paraphrase one of my favorite Congressman Barney Frank in response to an inflamed ‘teabagger,’ trying to reason with these insurance company bureaucrats is like trying to talk to a dining room table,” she said.
LaDonna Applebaum is a Missouri health care activist and a friend of Melanie’s. In the wake of Melanie’s death, she’s taken an action that Melanie would approve of: writing Senator Claire McCaskill and President Obama and telling them what happened.
In an email to local activists, LaDonna wrote: “I hope anyone reading this will call their lawmakers and scream that the Health Care bill is not dead but our dear friend is. I know Melanie wants us to keep fighting as she did.”
Melanie helped plan her memorial service with the help of Rabbi Susan Talvi of Central Reform Congregation. She chose to be cremated, wearing her Obama t-shirt. A memorial service will be held at 3 p.m. Saturday, Feb. 13 at Central Reform Congregation, 5020 Waterman in St. Louis. Melanie requested that those attending wear their activist t-shirts.
In lieu of flowers, let us remember why we fight and who we are fighting for.
Feb. 5 Update: Melanie’s story is reverberating around the country. Yesterday she attracted the attention of President Obama. Here are his remarks:
I got a letter — I got a note today from one of my staff — they forwarded it to me — from a woman in St. Louis who had been part of our campaign, very active, who had passed away from breast cancer. She didn’t have insurance. She couldn’t afford it, so she had put off having the kind of exams that she needed. And she had fought a tough battle for four years. All through the campaign she was fighting it, but finally she succumbed to it. And she insisted she’s going to be buried in an Obama t-shirt. (Laughter.)
But think about this: She was fighting that whole time not just to get me elected, not even to get herself health insurance, but because she understood that there were others coming behind her who were going to find themselves in the same situation and she didn’t want somebody else going through that same thing. (Applause.)
How can I say to her, “You know what? We’re giving up”? How can I say to her family, “This is too hard”? How can Democrats on the Hill say, “This is politically too risky”? How can Republicans on the Hill say, “We’re better off just blocking anything from happening.” That can’t be the message that the American people are delivering. Yes, they’re nervous, they’re anxious, they’re in a tough time right now. The thing they want most are jobs. They really don’t like the process in Washington, the sausage-making. That part I understand. But I know that they don’t — but I know they don’t want to just offer nothing to the millions of people in America who are in the situation that that woman was in.
That’s what we campaigned on. And we are going to keep on working to get it done — with Democrats and I hope with Republicans and everybody else in between — to bring down costs, to end the worst practices of the insurance industry, to finally give every American the chance to choose quality, affordable health care. We are going to keep on working to get it done.
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This post was mentioned on Twitter by usaction: Health care is not dead, but our friend is http://bit.ly/chIxF2 #p2 #hcr #healthcare #pplpwr…
It is true. Our country IS barbaric.
Unbelievable but not incommon.
i am soo sad for us all Betsy
[...] to fight and that other politicians join him. Many Americans are suffering right now and some lives are in danger. We need politicians who are actually fighting FOR something – namely, the more pressing [...]
[...] As David wrote on Tuesday, our friend, Melanie Shouse, passed away because she did not recieve necessary care for her breast cancer. A tireless advocate for health care reform, Melanie attracted attention of President Obama yesterday: [...]
And you guys aren’t even ashamed that Barry lied about her having health insurance.
So is this article saying that her Missouri Medicaid (”a public option, if you will”) didn’t cover the oncologist’s recommended treatment? Why not? Why does the author make it seem that only the private insurance company was cruel, and not the “public option” as well?
And another question: How could her fellow campaigners allow her to suffer this way? Couldn’t you all have kicked in some money to help her? Surely you Aggressive Progressives, who care so deeply and passionately about others, could have coughed up some of your own money to help this poor woman. What is the matter with you?
And you have the nerve to call Republicans heartless.
Maybe your group consists of only five people. Let us hope so.
Her legacy: Cremated in an Obama t-shirt — someone who dines on Kobe beef, parties it up while people are suffering, and pisses our money away on his endless jaunts. How sad. Truly pathetic, in the most tragic sense of the word.
WhatABlip, excellent questions, seems their ‘friend’ is more useful dead than alive.
And we know progressive adore useful idiots.
She HAD insurance. She chose not to use it. Whose fault is that really? I am very sorry for your friend but life is made up of choices and she chose to ignore her own situation until it was too late.
And by the way, I find it shameful that Obama lied about this. And even more shameful that all of you are choosing to use your friend’s bad decision to try to force an even worse policy on this county.
Folks:
Several interesting — and revealing — accusations have been made after our posts regarding the sad death of our friend Melanie Shouse.
A point by point refutation:
1. George writes that “Barry lied about her having insurance.” Well, I’m assuming that George is referring to President Barack Obama. George, Melanie started out with a $5,000 catastrophic insurance policy. This did not cover her getting a diagnosis. Good insurance (which I have and I am willing to bet you have — or maybe you don’t?) would have covered this.
Second, later, when her insurance policy did kick in, her medical team recommended an aggressive (and proven) treatment. Her insurance policy rejected it out of hand.
2. WhatABlip and Craig: If you want to debate policy, debate it. I’m not responding to ad hominem attacks, especially in this sad time.
3. Notbuyingit: Yes…she had insurance. But once again, see point number one: It did not cover her diagnosis. Could she have bought outstanding insurance, like you and I might have? Well, consider that she was a small business owner. She had to choose between one and the other. Should small business owners be forced into this choice? Is this good for business? Is it good for our economy? If it’s bad for business and bad for our economy, then it’s probably worse for wokers.
A note: It seems like many of our respondents are into a “blame the victim” mentality here. I reject that. We, as a country, can make good choices. We can make choices that are good for small business, good for workers, good for patients. We don’t have to settle for less — and opponents of health care reform notwithstanding, we won’t.
A sad tale indeed. If you can say, what was the aggressive treatment recommended and at what point was it suggested?
How pathetic that the President in “honoring”her could not even be bothered to learn her name. Perhaps it was not on the teleprompter. Godspeed to Melanie but come on, he used her as a prop last night and could not even bother with her name. Melanie was a prop, not a person to him.
David, I asked some perfectly reasonable, valid questions. You didn’t deign to address them at all. Instead, you simply evaded them. Very typical of “progressives.” You are correct that I was less than charitable in my assessment of your group. However, I stand by my gut reaction — why didn’t your group help her?
And, that aside, why DIDN’T the Missouri Medicaid cover her expenses? Is that an example of a functioning public option? This is a policy question, by the way.
I am no fan of the health insurance industry. Our health care system is in need of a major overhaul. In my opinion, health insurance shouldn’t be tied to work, there should not be state resident restrictions (which would open up competition), and there needs to be a cap on malpractice suits. Over-litigation is killing the quality of our health care.
I do not like several of the provisions in the health insurance legislation. If you are interested in knowing what they are, let me know. I don’t think you’ll bother to respond, however, because, in my experience, no “progressive” ever wants to discuss issues. They just want to dictate and then become outraged when presented with any data that refutes them.
By the way, your Prince Obama is a pure media creation. If you want to debate that, I’ll be around.
Mr. Elliot,
You clearly don’t understand. This woman is dead due to her own inaction. People every day have to make tough choices. I work overseas because I CHOSE to do what was necessary to have a job rather than be in the U.S. without one. Would I rather be back in the U.S. with my family? Of course. However, it seemed more important to me to be INDEPENDENT and SUPPORT MYSELF.
Ms. Shouse certainly faced a difficult choice. She chose death rather than to struggle for life. You are trying to use her choice to make others feel guilty about not using the resources they have earned to help her. If you could, you would FORCE others to have to yield those resources to government so no one else would have to face those choices.
I’ll tell you this: until our government has an EFFECTIVE policy IN PLACE which ABSOLUTELY DENIES free medical coverage of any type to ANYONE who is in this country illegally, I’ll be a bitter opponent of socialized medicine. You leftists want America to be responsible for the health and welfare of everyone on Earth. You clearly didn’t learn the first rule of Economic 101: wants are unlimited while means are limited.
America can’t afford the medical system it has now. It certainly can’t afford incredibly expensive new entitlements such as Obamacare. From this position, it looks as if the left is actually trying to destroy the country through bankruptcy. The American people do not like the leftist policies Mr. Obama is pushing. I suggest you lefties prepare for a crushing defeat in November, as Massachusetts and Mr. Brown are just the first hints of the oncoming tsunami that will sweep the Congress’ Democrat majorities into the past.
Given the fervency of Ms. Shouse’s left-wing political leanings, her death may have spared her a great deal of suffering in the near future.
Fellow posters, did you notice that David didn’t answer my question asking why they didn’t help her? Know why he didn’t answer? I do. It’s because they failed her and they have no answer for it.
Our country is not barbaric, Betsy. Your little group is.
@whatablip: should be “whatanidiot”
Mac: I am interested in knowing if there are any other jobs where you are. I have been looking for over a year and am willing to expatriate to get one, if the employer will pay relocation. Are you working for a foreign employer who provides decent health insurance or are you getting yours through one of the many countries which manage to afford universal health care?
There are more than 1400 fans on a facebook memorial for Melanie Shouse who would disagree wholeheartedly with some of the commenters’ characterization of both the health care crisis in our country and the life of Melanie Shouse. http://facebook.com/ripmelanie
WhatABlip: do you honestly think that Melanie was the only person without access to health coverage? In case you are unaware, over 45,000 people die every year from lack of good health insurance (on top of the many people living without insurance). By having a system as unaffordable as ours, we are excluding tens of thousands of people from quality health care.
For small business owners like Melanie, it was impossible for her to buy coverage. Is this how to get our economy back on track and stem the jobs crisis–by killing small business owners?
Throwing around labels like “socialized medicine” does not take away from this simple fact: while tens of thousands of people are losing their coverage and tens of thousands are dying from lack of it, big insurance CEOs are becoming richer. Does that sound like a status quo we want to maintain?
Those of you who post your negative attacks here - you are the ones who are pathetic. You think you belong to the Safe Club and that nothing will ever happen to you. Well, think again. Resorting to political rhetoric and attacks on a site which is supposed to be a tribute to a woman who just died is wrong on so many levels. Don’t bother to respond to me because I will not revisit here to see what you have to say. I have heard it over and over and over again - you’re like a bunch of parrots mouthing your self righteous prattle while you look down on the rest of us. I’ll tell you what, WhatABlip, Craig, Mac and notbuyingit, there but for the Grace of God go you. I know whereof I speak because once upon a time I was sitting pretty just like you. I won’t share my story with you because none of you care - it interferes with your view of your specialness to hear that hardworking Americans who pay all their taxes on all their pitiful income cannot access decent health care. I would say I hope you do fall, you do learn what it’s like, but I have too much compassion and wouldn’t wish this existence on a cockroach. And that, of course, is the difference between you and me - you have all the money and the percs while this progressive has the heart and soul.
As I read some of these comments, I am amazed at the lack of empathy. Do those who have posted such negative comments not realize that they, too, could find themselves in Melanie Shouse’s shoes tomorrow? Do they not realize that while we spend billions on fruitless wars in the Middle East our own citizens are going bankrupt or, worse, dying, from inadequate health insurance? I live in Missouri and SAW the gutting of the Medicaid and CHIPS insurance programs under the former Republican Governor Matt Blunt. The simple fact is that the cost of health care is looming as the primary factor that is going to deliver the sealing blow to the demise of the living standard many of us enjoy. Don’t support health care reform? Better learn Chinese, because they are currently financing our deficit (which is going to balloon due to health care costs) and are more and more inclined to tell us “We’re paying the bills, you do it our way”.
Finally, to say this woman died because of her own negligence is simply, utterly without a sense of compassion or kindness. She did the best she could in her own situation…until you’ve walked in those shoes you have NO basis to judge, therefore your heinous judgment is meaningless and mean-spirited.
Would national health care have prevented this tragedy? Maybe so but that argument is not made here. Delay is what killed Melanie and delay is the hallmark of Canada’s national health care system. How will we keep our system from having this flaw?
Conversely, if we had tort reform, health care costs would be much lower and Melanie might have had better options from the get go. What’s broken in our system is the frivolous lawsuits. The currently proposed health care bills have no tort reform in them at all. They fix everything except the part that needs fixing.
It dishonors Melanie’s memory to use her to promote a misguided “fix.”
The courage, wisdom, and compassion of some writers here make me proud. The willful ignorance and cruelty of others leaves me saddened, but not surprised. These comments represent in microcosm the polarization that has occurred in Washington, and that will prevail until all sides are willing to hear and consider the perspectives of the other.
Melanie’s death is a loss to all of us. Her wisdom and courage will live on.
I know that, to most people, it’s all words on a screen, someone else’s strongly phrased opinions that is in conflict with your own strongly phrased opinions. It’s just words, and a picture of a woman, and it’s easy to read this as an abstract example of legislative ineptness, or to see that picture as a poster for a program you hate.
But please, before you hit submit, say aloud to yourself: this was a real person. There’s a real family hurting right now.
You don’t agree with her politics? Great. You don’t have to hold a Phelps-fest here, ranting and raving in the comments section of this woman’s obituary. “While I disagree with her stance on health care, I offer my condolences to Ms. Shouse’s friends and family in their time of mourning.”
You agree entirely with her politics? Great. But even if her family is all right with her being held up here as an example, it LOOKS cold-blooded and is counterproductive. “I offer my condolences to Ms. Shouse’s friends and family in their time of mourning, and will respect her family’s right to mourn her in peace and with dignity.”
Regardless of whatever decision she made, there is a fact that cannot be forgotten and, much less, avoided.
1. During the process of her disease, did her oncologist offer a treatment that he/she considered the best for her condition at that time?
YES.
2. Did she undergo that treatment?
NO.
3. Why?
BECAUSE IT WAS DENIED TO HER.
Honestly, to these people that are writing these hateful messages.
Remember, when you judge sombody and want to use words, make them short and sweet, because you never know when you will have to eat them up.
Regardless of whatever decision she made, there is a fact that cannot be forgotten and, much less, avoided.
1. During the process of her disease, did her oncologist offer a treatment that he/she considered the best for her condition at that time?
YES.
2. Did she undergo that treatment?
NO.
3. Why?
BECAUSE IT WAS DENIED TO HER.
Frederick Michael,
In response to your comment that “It dishonors Melanie’s memory to use her to promote a misguided ‘fix.’
Please reflect a bit more on her story: “When Melanie Shouse began feeling ill, eventually finding a lump in her breast, she couldn’t afford a doctor. She and her partner had just used their savings to open a business.
“A year later, when she was finally able to afford to see doctors, they told her she had terminal, stage four breast cancer. She spent the next 4½ years fighting for health care reform that she didn’t live to see pass.
“She took the bus to and from her chemotherapy appointments in the Central West End. Then she’d pick up a sign or banner and walk a picket line.”
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/deathsobituaries/story/B800B952053456C7862576C000092F86?OpenDocument
I’m a health care provider. I’ve read the above story (in several places) and wanted to make a few comments.
#1. I’ve worked in ‘public option’ health care settings (County Hospitals, VA, Clinics). The services in them are normally (with a few exceptions) much worse than in private hospitals, doctors offices, etc. This is pretty consistent with the national health care systems (Canada, G. Britain), etc. The delays normally associated with these settings would have likely had the same outcome for Melanie.
#2. “Please reflect a bit more on her story: “When Melanie Shouse began feeling ill, eventually finding a lump in her breast, she couldn’t afford a doctor. She and her partner had just used their savings to open a business.”". So Melanie couldn’t afford a $100 (more or less) office visit? No, she was afraid it might be something serious and went into denial. Or maybe she was afraid to put a burden on her partner…either way, she made a decision. In hindsight, it was a poor decision. That is the root cause of the problem, not the health care system.
#3. Insurance denials. I have yet to see any specifics on the denial. Did her Doctor recommend a radical new (i.e. unproven) treatment? Did she recommend an expensive (but proven) treatment regimen? I see this every day. People assume the insurance company is evil….they aren’t, but they are an uncaring business. They are there to make money…if the Melanie’s insurance contract said “we won’t pay for new therapy”…then the company won’t pay.
#4. Someone made a comment above about how expensive health care is. Does anyone REALLY think that getting government involved is going to lower the costs? It might spread the costs out among more people or dilute the amount of care that can be given, but it definitely won’t cut costs.
A. Farr,
#2. She had catastrophic coverage with a $5,000 deductible. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that mean she would have paid for the original “$100 office visit” plus another $4,900 before her health insurance really kicked in? I’m sure there are plan differences, but she decided to focus her financial efforts on her small business, not her health.
#4. The government is involved with Medicare, are you against that, too? Health insurance costs increase way too fast in this country, that’s one of the reasons I’m for reform and a public option.
Health-insurance premiums outpacing wages, inflation
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2009873536_healthcost16.html
“Over the past 10 years, premiums have risen 131 percent while wages have increased just 38 percent. In that time, inflation has gone up 28 percent.”
Neil,
#2 is my point exactly….she could have chosen to pay the $100 out of pocket early rather than going into denial. Her private insurance was a high deductible plan from the stories…that made it cheap out of pocket (less per month for the insurance) with the expectation that you would not get sick, or would be willing to pay out of pocket if you did until you met your deductible. If she had paid the $100 for an office visit WHEN she felt the lump, she would have known it was potentially serious, and could have gotten MUCH cheaper treatment early.
#4. The government is involved in Medicaid also….that’s what she had in addition to her private insurance….but I don’t see anyone railing against Medicaid (public option)…indeed, the health care plans in congress included expanding Medicaid…and Medicaid didn’t pay for the treatment either.
Here’s a quote I found:
“My name is Melanie Shouse, and I am a breast cancer survivor. Four years ago, at age 37, I was an entrepreneur struggling to grow my small business, and only able to afford a catastrophic health insurance policy with co-pays and deductibles nearing ten thousand dollars. I had to take the ultimate risk with my health in order to chase the American Dream, like so many small business owners in America today. So when I first felt a small lump, denial seemed the only option available to me.
But as our nation has learned so painfully over the last eight years, denial only leads to catastrophe. In October 2005, I was forced to admit reality by walking into Siteman Cancer Center for the dreaded diagnosis. But by this time, the cancer had spread throughout my body to bone, lungs and liver. It was now classified as Stage 4 breast cancer, the kind you don’t recover from. My chance of survival was pegged at just 13% as a result of the delay in diagnosis and treatment caused by inadequate health coverage.”
She made a decision…in retrospect a poor one. I was not in her shoes, so I can’t speak to what went into her decision. Her possibility of survival went way down based on her own decisions.
Health care costs are rising for a number of reasons…..we expect “the best” here in the US…the latest drugs, best technology, etc. etc. The best costs. The insurance companies make money on premiums, but they are NOT the whole problem…get the government (more) involved and quality will go way down and costs will go way up. You mention Medicare…were you aware that Medicare is scheduled to cut reimbursement by 21% to doctors, hospitals, etc? When Medicare started, it was to pay reasonable and customary rates to the doctors, etc…the government said “we aren’t going to set rates”…now EVERYONE follows Medicare pricing. I won’t even get into Medicaid other than to say it is a money losing proposition for just about everyone that takes it.
And, finally…in the case of Melanie…if we had a public option and she showed up with a 13% possibility of survival, the government probably wouldn’t pay for it either. Maybe she would have gone to a doctor earlier….but she could have done that anyway…it might have cost a little money…but not her life.
What a sad, tragic story. We should all extend our deepest sympathy to Ms. Shouse’s family and friends for their loss. Cancer is a terrible scourge and the loss of anyone this young is a terrible tragedy.
To Mckathiki, remember that most people who oppose nationalizing health care sincerely believe that more government involvement would decrease the quality of care in our country. They do not share your faith in the efficiency and effectiveness of government-run bureaucracies.
Regarding some of the comments made by Mo, Art, Ann, and other “aggressive progressives,” you should remember that it was your fellow progressive LaDonna Applebaum who chose to politicize her death. Ms. Applebaum, acting in accordance with Ms. Shouse’s wishes, wrote to national politicians to make the circumstances of her death a matter of public debate. And the President of the United States used her death as an argument to further his political ambitions. Thanks to them, her death is no longer just a private matter, but a part of the national debate.
Mo, this page is not the “comments section of her obituary.” This page is a political advocacy site, that is advocating nationalization of health care — a political decision would decrease the quality of health care for all of us.
Jill and Chere:
“1. During the process of her disease, did her oncologist offer a treatment that he/she considered the best for her condition at that time?
YES.
2. Did she undergo that treatment?
NO.
3. Why?
BECAUSE IT WAS DENIED TO HER.”
Here are another two simple questions to add to your list:
4. Do countries with government-run health care deny treatments?
YES.
5. In Massachusetts, where there is both government health care and private health care, which type of plan denies treatments more often?
THE GOVERNMENT PLAN.
Breast exams are offered FREE-OF-CHARGE to the needy where this woman lived. My guess is that she didn’t qualify for that financially because she wasn’t actually needy but just choose to spend her money on things less mundane than health insurance.
The poor can ALWAYS get care for free at hospitals. A friend of mine was poor, had no insurance and received full blown cancer treatment (> $500k) over two years ABSOLUTELY FREE.
We don’t have sick dying in our streets for lack of universal healthcare. They either do not try to get free care or do not qualify for free care because they choose to spend their money on things other than health insurance (nice car, tv’s, etc).
“We don’t have sick dying in our streets for lack of universal healthcare. They either do not try to get free care or do not qualify for free care because they choose to spend their money on things other than health insurance (nice car, tv’s, etc).”
That’s kind of simplistic, isn’t it? The comment is typical of a person who never really had to struggle economically. Maybe they are choosing to spend money on food and/or rent and/or gasoline and/or repairs to the beater they had to buy to get to work which ends up costing more than a new car payment would and/or heat and/or electricity. In Missouri, where Melanie lived, the level of income at which one can qualify for assistance is so low than anyone who can put a roof over her own head cannot qualify. My wife worked at a cancer clinic where the pharmacist sent senior citizens home without their medication because they had reached the donut whole in their Medicare Prescription and could not pay out of pocket, so the “full blown cancer treatment … absolutely free” claim sounds to me like there is something much more involved with it that we’re not hearing. If it were true, it would be a ringing endorsement of government-run, universal care.
A. Farr,
For me, this is all about my belief that more affordable access to health care would have helped Melanie and would help others. I’d rather not discuss her case with you any further.
Regarding the bigger issue, I just don’t buy the idea that our government would do worse than other western countries that provide health care for their citizens. And if it’s so bad for them (you mention Canada & Great Britain), where are their mass movements of citizens & politicians demanding change?
What’s being advocated is expanding government coverage, not eliminating for-profit insurance providers. Did you see this article in Time magazine?
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20090316,00.html
Curious to hear your thoughts on it.
Mark,
We all need to be compassionate to the poor, and part of our responsibility as caring human beings is to donate to charities that help the poor get appropriate health insurance.
The need for improvements in our charitable efforts, however, does not justify dismantling the best health care system in the world and replacing it with a government-run bureaucracy.
An analogy is food: we should make private donations for soup kitchens and food banks to help those who can’t get enough food, but we shouldn’t replace our (flawed-but-effective) system of private farms, supermarkets, fast-food outlets, and restaurants with a government-run food distribution system.
It is amazing to me that some of the posts try to shut others down with claims of this being disrespectful to the family, and that the conservatives are trying to politicize this. Are you kidding? Take a good honest look in the mirror folks. And oh by the way, our President (and I say that with a heavy heart) has chosen to throw this front and center into the political arena. He might have gained more traction, with me at least, if he hadn’t resorted to his old standby of self-worship (”And she insisted she’s going to be buried in an Obama t-shirt”). Wow. He doesn’t bother to remember her name but by golly he is all about the Obama t-shirt. The entire thing makes my stomach churn.
BTW, I lost my mother to breast cancer back in 2001, so don’t lecture me about lack of empathy or not caring.
Neil,
I’m more centrist than progressive in my views, but I truly believe (just as you believe that easier access may have saved Melanie’s life) that more government involvement in health care (through increased regulation and additional laws) will ultimately lead to a single payer (”public option”) system…i.e….the Government controls all health care.
Even if it’s unintentional…increased regulation makes for increased cost…driving the insurance companies out of business, so the government will “have” to take the reins.
Increased regulation now will cause more problems later.
And, finally….even in Canada…Claude Castonguay (the Architect of the Quebec..then Canadian system from the ’60s) is saying…”We thought we could resolve the system’s problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it,” says Castonguay. But now he prescribes a radical overhaul: “We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice.”
So the people in Canada and Great Britain ARE starting to realize that their systems aren’t as good as they had hoped. They have been dependent for so long, it’s going to take time for reforms to begin.
Oh, my. Some of you posters think I have a rose garden life and they are just drooling for me to suffer some calamity.
I said I had issues with the existing health insurance system — statements conveniently ignored by the same posters. Actually, I have a life-long chronic disability which makes it very difficult to work. However, I do work and I pay for my own insurance. I have a very high deductible policy and have had it for years.
You also conveniently ignored that I referred to the suffering of Ms. Shouse from my very first post and was reacting to your group’s NOT HELPING HER financially. I am very sympathetic to Ms. Shouse. Couldn’t you “organizers” have organized a few fundraisers for her? None of you have responded to that. Once again, because you can’t. You could have helped her. Too damn late, isn’t it?
What can 1400 or 14,000 or 14 million people on a facebook page do for her now? NADA. Nothing but assuage your guilt somehow I suppose. 1400 people kicking in a measly $100 apiece BEFORE she died might have helped. I am certainly not blaming the victim. Don’t you get it? I’m blaming YOU.
The intellectual dullness of some of you posters is frightening, yet I am the idiot. (rolls eyes)
And I see there is no response from l’auteur estime, Mr. Elliot, who has undoubtedly decided I am icky, probably racist and certainly far beneath his noble gaze. NO SURPRISE THERE, Proggy!
To the rest of you Repressive Regressives, why do you suppose the audience laughed when Bonnie Prince Obama said she insisted on being buried in an Obama t-shirt? Do tell.
“A. Farr,
For me, this is all about my belief that more affordable access to health care would have helped Melanie and would help others. I’d rather not discuss her case with you any further.”
See? This is what they do. “I just won’t discuss it any further, even though I am the one who brought it up.” Never fails. Then they refer you to some article written by some overpaid hack. Next step is to call people who do not like Obama’s policies “racists.” After that comes the deleting of posts and the banning of posters they don’t like. (A symbolic “purge.” When they have the power to actually intimidate, jail, and execute people, they do.)
They can’t help it. It’s who they are. Evasion and repression are the hallmarks of their particular political mindset, wherever and whenever it occurs in the world.
Can we all, regardless of political positions on the health-care debate, take a moment to recognize that a bright, courageous woman is dead? and that all of our lives, however directly or tangentially, are diminished by her passing?
I did not know her. But I respect her, and I am saddened by her death. To those who DID know her, and all whose paths crossed with hers directly, I offer my sincere sympathies on your loss.
Ann, this is a political action site, not an obituary site. It is compassionate to offer sympathies on her passing, as many of us have already done in earlier comments. But the primary purpose of the discussion here on this advocacy site is how to improve health options for all of us in the future.
You may note that President Obama, in his comments, did not offer sympathies on Ms Shouse’s passing. He is using her story for political gain, as she herself apparently hoped that he would. Therefore this is no longer just about this one woman’s situation and the grief of those who knew her. It is about government policies that affect all of us.
And if this health care legislation is so important - 10,000’s dying every year - why don’t the benefits go into effect immediately upon passage instead of years from now? Don’t Obama and the Democrats care?
To independent,
Actually, I am a European. In the Western European countries that have what you call a government-run health care, nobody is EVER, NOT EVER, denied any treatment that the doctor considers necessary, and doctors don’t play dumb pretending not to consider it necessary (in case that is your next excuse).
NEVER, EVER, NOT EVER treatment is denied. N-E-V-E-R.
I know this because I was born there and I lived there all my life, except for the last three years.
If you are talking about Canada, I don’t know. NEVER EVER in Spain, France, England (for example).
As far as the few bitter ones: I think YOU ARE NOT WORTH a minute of my time or energy. Enjoy yourself your bitter day.
“Don’t bother to respond to me because I will not revisit here to see what you have to say.”
“As far as the few bitter ones: I think YOU ARE NOT WORTH a minute of my time or energy.”
BINGO! Two more winners here in the Progressive Intellectual Policy Debaters Club! They join the illustrious contributors already mentioned:
“If you want to debate policy, debate it. I’m not responding to ad hominem attacks, especially in this sad time.”
“I’d rather not discuss her case with you any further.”
How many more winners will we have today? Keep proving my case, proggies. The more you post, the more we win.
How truly sad a nation we have become. 150 years ago, many of our ancestors set off on a journey cross country, bound for places like Ms. Shouse’s state of Missouri.
They had no health insurance, no dental plan, no social security - medicaid - medicare - AFDC - LIHEAP - EITC — I could go on and on.
What they had was what they could fit in a wagon, or carry on thier backs. They traveled upwards of 1,500 miles to find a place that they could call home. A place where they could live free, and be the masters of thier own destiny.
They faced perils of travelling into barely charted territory, with no roads, no aid centers, no police or court system, no attorney to sue for thier “rights”. They faced natives that were often hostile, storms that made travel impossible, rivers with no bridges, and every sort of hardship that we today cannot begin to imagine.
When they were down on thier luck, they sought work from a neighbor, often in return for nothing more than room and board. When they offered charity, it was by thier own free will, and not coerced from them by force of law.
I wonder how many people today have what it takes to embark on such a journey?
Precious few I imagine. As for the rest of you, you’d better learn how to fend for yourselves, because this abomination known as the great society is about to come crashing down. 40+ years of demanding more and more from the producers in this country has left us with an insurmountable debt, and a currency that will in short order be worthless.
You are soon to learn that you are NOT ENTITLED to ANYTHING that YOU DIDN’T EARN.
I don’t say these things to be confrontational. The time for that is long past. The damage is done, and nothing can change the path that our nation is now on. We are bankrupt, pure and simple.
For your own good, and for the good of those you love, PLEASE, learn to fend for yourselves. Learn some productive skills, skills that might allow you to work for your room and board. Because when the Schumer hits the fan, you DO NOT want to come to me telling ME what YOU ARE ENTITLED TO!
WhatABlip,
While I question your need to resort to name-calling and am pretty sure it’s the only reason a comment would be deleted, please take a moment to note that none of your comments have been deleted.
I don’t want to discuss Melanie’s case because I’d rather discuss the broader issue of health care reform.
A. Farr,
Thanks for your response. I think we may have to agree to disagree, though. I believe increased regulation will control costs and if we do create problems, I think we’ll be able to handle them. However, millions of people without insurance is a problem I think we need to tackle first.
Jill, I can’t speak about the specifics in France or Spain, but I know that in the U.K. the National Health Service (NHS) decides which treatments will be covered and which will not. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) makes recommendations to the NHS on what types of patients should be covered and for which treatments.
Understand that there will always be health care rationing for every human being on this earth. ALWAYS. (A-L-W-A-Y-S, since you like to spell things out.)
In fact, there is always rationing of anything which is not available free, in unlimited quantities. There is rationing of cocktail dresses, of televisions, of lollipops, of teddy bears. Everything.
The question is, who gets to do the rationing?
In a free market, the individual makes the decisions. Everyone pays for the things they need, and then the things they want. Everyone has different priorities, so they each make their choices differently, and they live with the consequences of those decisions. This is called individual freedom.
In a socialist system, however, government officials make the decisions. Far removed from individuals and their priorities, government bureaucrats decide what is best for everyone. This is often less than ideal. For example, in the U.K. women receive their first “invitation” to a breast cancer screening sometime between ages 50 and 53, once every three years (in 2012 they will be expanding this to include women as “young” as 47). In France they screen women between the ages of 50 and 74, every two years.
In the United States women are typically screened starting at age 40. Maybe this is “too early” and a waste of money. But that is the beauty of individual freedom — if you want to pay to be “extra careful” and don’t think it’s a waste, you can make early mammograms a higher priority when YOU make YOUR health payment choices. (Note that Ms. Shouse, whose tragic story President Obama chose to highlight in an attempt to further his political ambitions, died at age 41.)
The current problems in the American health care system are caused by people not having enough individual freedom, not by having too much. First, health insurance is tied to employment, which is ridiculous. Individuals should get a tax break when buying health insurance, the same way businesses do. Second, individuals should be able to buy health insurance across state lines to increase competition between insurance companies. Third, insurance carriers should be able to offer policies that include as much — or as little — coverage as the customer wants. Don’t want coverage for acupressure treatments or gender-reassignment surgery? Your policy premiums go down.
Even just these three improvements would cause a great increase in individual health insurance options.
@Neil Payne, “name calling” is relative, is it not?
Fact is, the issues raised in my post were ignored and aspersions were cast on my motives and empathy.
On to the issues: “Independent” and “Frederick Michael” reiterate (much more eloquently) some solutions I mentioned in a previous post. Does anyone have a response to those ideas?
To Mr. Elliot and others who insist that they can only support health care reform unless it “absolutely denies free medical coverage of any type to anyone who is in this country illegally”, I can only ask that you please separate the issue of illegal immigration from other issues. To deny health care (or other basic service) to people who live and/or work legally in the USA because someone else might receive such a service makes no sense. It’s a knee-jerk reaction to anger about illegal immigration.
Let’s handle immigration issues in a separate, comprehensive immigration law that details what illegals can and cannot access legally - and quit gumming up the works for those who live/work here legally, and far out-number those who do not.
mis condolencias a la familia, pero siempre vivira en nuestros corazones por su lucha y entrega, y su trabajo se continuara, lo difundire en mis paginas, ella desde el cielo nos ayudara a su noble causa, con cariño
rosa pozo
http://babyseals.ning.com
http://www.myspace.com/sonypozo
http://www.youtube.com/sonypozo
Dawn:
I agree with you, and am puzzled why you would ascribe a position to me that I have never, ever held. I support quality, affordable health care for all. And I support comprehensive immigration reform. And I believe immigrants should be allowed to purchase health insurance from what is being called the “exchange” — a choice of private plans. (I’d greatly prefer that a public option be included, but at the end of the day, good things can still happen even if, as I hope, the public option doesn’t get through Congress.)
Confusing sentence structure above — my apologies. I meant to say that I favor a public option, but that if Congress doesn’t pursue that route, we can still accomplish some good health care reform — the “triple A” approach — accountability for insurance companies, affordability for consumers and accessibility for all.
It is so sad how the big insurance companies and the politicians that support them have brain-washed so many Americans, about a health care reform that will be beneficial to the people for once and not to them…The reality is that if there is no health care reform insurance companies will continue to refuse people that have pre-exiting illnesses, refuse to pay for many cancer treatments, refuse specialist referrals and charge outrageous premiums etc…They know it’s all about making money for them they could care less about us as people…Until we as a people realize this and say we want reform we will keep dying and the premiums will keep rising…Long as people keep believing propaganda from those who will lose billions dollars instead of making billions we will never get heath reform passed…It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee and let the big insurance companies know we are smarter than they are… Instead of fighting with each other here in this forum we should come together and fight to get the health care reform passed, now that’s something to fight about….This is all I have to say my comments can be agreed with or disagreed with I will not be fighting back and forth in this forum.
Dawn,
I wish we had that luxury. What you “progressives” don’t understand is that we are BANKRUPT as a nation. Got that? B-A-N-K-R-U-P-T, as in broke, busted, out of money. We don’t have the cash to pay our current bills and accumulated debt, much less a huge new entitlement that will bring half the world to our shores looking for medical care.
I look at this country and wonder just what in Hell is wrong with all of you that can’t see the economic situation we’re in. I read comments and stories about the “evil lenders who forced people to take home loans they couldn’t repay.” Are we so damned stupid as a people that we can no longer be assumed competent to understand the obligations we assume in taking out a loan?
I see all the people out there who want a “public option” for medical care that don’t seem to understand that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH! That “public option” costs money–a lot of it–and it’s got to come from somewhere. People like Ms. Shouse sure as Hell weren’t going to be paying it (not enough money), so what you’re proposing is that you TAKE, AT GUNPOINT (through the IRS) from someone who did make enough. You can get away with that for a while, but sooner or later the productive say “Enough!” and move elsewhere, out of the reach of the robbers.
Don’t believe that? Look at California, New York and Massachusetts. Look at the U.K before them. Listen to the Beatles’ song “Taxman” and read up on why the Beatles wrote it–and why three of them moved to America.
To go back to where I started, Dawn, our financial boat is sinking and we’re figuratively drowning in debt. You “progressive” folks want even more spending that will quicken the plunge. Do you really want to see the dollar destroyed? Do you really want to see America collapse economically? Keep pushing the redistributive politics you’re pushing and it won’t be much longer.
Bet on this, too: the “rich” people you hate and want to take from won’t be here to suffer from the collapse. They’ll have been smart enough and prudent enough to have sequestered money and resources elsewhere. They’ll be gone to some other safe haven while the rest of the country either secedes or comes to look like Detroit. Meanwhile, you and your fellow “progressives” will be sitting here amidst your destroyed economy, with overwhelming amounts of poverty and crime surrounding you, and wondering what the Hell happened.
What happened is that you killed the capitalist goose that laid the golden eggs.
I’m truly sorry about her loss but government rationed healthcare isn’t that great and no matter what you have heard from all the political propagandist, Obama can’t cure cancer .
Diane (and your oh so progressive friends) have distorted the truth so often that you no longer understand myth and reality. Simply by stating that our health care system is broken and then railing against the insurance companies is the perfect illustration of how ignorant you all are. Your poor dead advocate was described in MoveOnblah blah.org as being a victim of the injustices of our broken health care system. Understand for once and for all that Health Care and Health Insurance are NOT the same thing. I am a hospital CEO and never once in my entire career have I ever denied care to any human being based on their ability to pay. I wish this liberal pity parade would end. You propose changing health care to the point where I will face the reality of having to turn people away not because of ability to pay but because I will no longer be able to pay doctors and nurses to provide care and therefore, there will be noone to provide that care. WHY? WHY? Why can’t you morons understand the simplest facts of economics? Wake up and talk to people who are not on the dole from Obama’s money orgy and taking earmarks to buy there vote for an moronic bill. Turn on your brain and realize the annointed one was raised in Chicago politics. If he cannot get what he wants by solid argument and sound debate, he will get it through bribery or strong arm tactics. It’s the Chicago way! And for God’s sake (sorry I meant to say for Mao’s sake) don’t try one more time to vomit the line of what we inherited from Bush. Both houses of Congress were Democrats under Bush and bills are only delvered via Congress. It is your faul and their fault. Bush pays the penalty for a genuinely bipartisan administration.
Diane,
I agree with you that we need to reform our health insurance system. I posted three great reforms in my 2:39 p.m. post, above, that would increase competition among the big health insurers, reduce costs, and put control back in the hands of each of us as individuals.
Will you join me in fighting for these health care reforms?
Diane: “This is all I have to say my comments can be agreed with or disagreed with I will not be fighting back and forth in this forum.”
Folks, Diane has spoken and will not be lowering herself to debate the finer points with the likes of you.
Yet another winner!
A couple more thoughts…for Neil and others..
#1. We already have government regulation to a great extent in health care (and in health insurance). For a better understanding of how government steps all over health care…look up EMTALA and all the problems it causes.
#2. We take Medicaid where I work…under very, very limited conditions…for adults a direct referral from a family doctor (even if they don’t need one under their insurance plan) or for kids we’ll take it. We get paid less than $20 for the visit. For Medicare a visit pays about $60 (total…Medicare has a 20% copay, so it’s $48 from Medicare and $12 from the patient or their co-insurance). That is government insurance for you.
#3. The evil bugaboo….”They won’t cover pre-existing conditions”…why should they? Insurance companies are there to make money. If they add someone to their risk pool that they know is going to cost them significant money, then they will have to either raise rates for everyone or cut coverage for everyone. Most of us here are (statistically) good drivers…would you like it if your car insurance was required to take bad drivers (multiple tickets/accidents) at the same rate they insure you? What would happen? Everyone’s rates would go up. To fix this, I’d like to see insurance be more portable…have it, and you can keep it for life at the same rate as everyone else in the pool.
Mac,
you wrote: “…She chose death rather than to struggle for life.”
Although I do not know you, this sentence alone shows that you are a disgrace to yourself.
The rest of your verbal diarrhea is not even worth noticing.
I was a health care professional for 35 years. I mean front line health care; not sitting in an hospital administrators office. I’ve also had multiple surgeries and hospitalizations which would take too long to describe here. I’m fortunate that I had insurance even though not 100%. I would love to be having fun in the sun rght now, but because of these health issues I’m at home. I cannot even express my sorrow as well as disappointment for the people who have written such negative responses here. One thing those of us who have experienced illness first hand, or witnessed it, hear a lot is lack of compassion. Maybe it’s because until you’ve been there you have no idea what it’s like. To judge someone who has died a horrible death, as having killed herself rather than seek treatment, is far more than cruel; it also shows a lack of self awareness. Do you think you are immune? If so, I hope you have lots of money stashed away or have family who are willing to give you their money if something like this happens to you. I can assure you that it can happen to anyone. I’ve seen it many times as a nurse and as someone who cares about others. It boggles my mind that people can be so thoughtless and selfish. Yes, selfish. It’s the mindset that says “I have mine, it’s mine, I worked for it, you can’t have it, I don’t care what happens to you, keep your hands off mine”. Really, that’s how it sounds to those of us who believe that we are all here to take care of each other no matter who we are. If that makes us bleeding heart liberals then I”m proud to say I am one. When my time comes and, by the way, we all die, I will die with a clear conscious that I cared about others no matter if they had more or less than I do. I’m more aware than most of how often people think things won’t happen to them. I had a major house fire not too many years ago which, fortunately, I was able to get out with my husband and my dog. We lived close enough to the fire department that they got there fast enough to save our house. We lived in a hotel for 6 weeks, but we were alive. It was still a devastating experience. It was a problem in our attic. The one thing that stands out that I heard over and over again was, “I’ve got to clean out my attic; if it can happen to you it can happen to me.” This showed me without a doubt that people really don’t consider that these things could happen to them until it’s very close to them or someone they love. I learned when I was 20 years old that horrible things don’t just happen to other people because I was one of those other people something happened to. The lack of compassion I have read so much of here is a clear indication to me that you believe that it will never happen to you. I hope you wake up from your sleep walking before it’s too late. I”m not on welfare, I’m a middle class white woman. I”m not rich. I worked all my life so that I could retire with a modest nest egg. I’m your everyday, run of the mill individual. I”m not different from most people who are fighting against WHAT I BELIEVE IS RIGHT FOR ALL; GOOD HEALTH CARE. I do believe that our values are different.
Independent,
Honestly and with all due respect, if you put cocktail dresses and lollipops at the same level as somebody’s health or life… well, I don’t know what to tell you then…
It is very much true that some differences are so huge that they just have to be fought in the polls (since any other time of fight could get nasty) and just democratically accept the results… remember… 1789, French revolution, “LIBERTE, Egalite, Fraternite”… believe me… Republican Americans did not come up with the concept of individual freedom… it was conceptualized, fought for, and catapulted many many centuries ago and Republicans here have just twisted it to brainwash people to their advantage… “Hey, dude, I have the individual freedom of getting screwed in the *** by whoever I WANT… I’m FREE!!”
Health is not a business, it is a HUMAN RIGHT, so any type of rationing involved is wrong in its own nature.
The HUMAN RIGHT of being treated with respect by authorities, for example… A police officer has treated 25 people very well today, regardless of race, nationality, age, gender, etc, etc, etc… 25 people is the maximum number of people per day who have the right to be treated with respect and human dignity. Now, with all his/her individual freedom in the world of liking whoever he wants, he can disrespect person number 26.
THE HUMAN RIGHT of being protected from murderers (no pun intended) by your justice system. A judge has sentenced to death 2 murderers this month, and 2 is the monthly quota per judge. That month, that same judge, just happens to have 6 more murderers in his/her court, but hey, the murderers-quota has already been reached that month.
Health is a HUMAN RIGHT, and as such, there is rationing that can be considered valid.
Thank you for answering in a respectful way, anyways.
I meant no rationing that can be considered valid.
Linda,
I agree with you that it is sad that some people have a lack of compassion and/or a lack of basic awareness. We are all vulnerable human beings.
I also agree with you that good health care is a goal worth fighting for. Because health care is so important to all of us, I will continue to fight against taking control away from individuals and giving it to a government bureaucracy. I think it is not compassionate forcibly turn over this important function to be run like the Department of Motor Vehicles or the Post Office.
I think the compassionate thing for all of us, especially the least fortunate among us, is to have a system that gives individuals the ability to make their own decisions and to have a wide range of competitive choices available.
I outlined, in the comments above, three steps that would take us in that direction. Will you join me?
Linda & Jill…
I’m not an administrator either ($200k+ in student loans help to show that)..
“To judge someone who has died a horrible death, as having killed herself rather than seek treatment”….that’s the wrong premise. She didn’t kill herself, she decided that her business (and likely keeping the strain from her partner) was more important to her than trying to find a way to pay for her $10k copays and deductibles. She made a decision (again, in retrospect most people will say it was a poor decision..but we were not in her shoes at the time). She made a financial decision (or, as I mentioned above went into denial).
“Health is not a business, it is a HUMAN RIGHT”…no, Jill, it is not a human right. Here in the US…we have equal access to health care…that IS a right…not the health care itself, but the access to it. Too often the argument against the “public option” is that anyone against it thinks that we should let people die for lack of health care. That is a specious argument. People (like me who realize how bad government run health care can be) against the public option aren’t saying “I’ve got mine, screw you”…they are saying “I work hard and pay my way through both taxes and my own insurance….I don’t want to pay for someone who doesn’t pay their own way, and I especially don’t want to lose the quality of care I pay for so everyone else can get free care”.
“Health is a HUMAN RIGHT, and as such, there is no rationing that can be considered valid”…again, equal access is the right, not having everyone else pay for it. If everyone in the US needed an MRI and was willing to pay for it, they’d build more MRI machines. If everyone in the US needed an MRI and only 10% can afford to pay for it, they aren’t going to build the machines. That’s the kind of rationing that happens. In your two fallacious arguments above…the Police Officer doesn’t have a number of people he has to interact with during the day, he has a limited time on the clock…that’s how they ration police services…or, maybe in your community they issue everyone a police officer 24/7 to be sure you are safe? The judge….their time is rationed not by strict numbers, but by the time it takes for the trial…they only have time for 2 trials a day…more than that, they don’t let them off, they make them wait for their trial. In both cases, more demand (and people being willing to pay the taxes to fund them) would equal more police and judges.
Jill,
I am so grateful to the French for their support of America’s fight for freedom in the late 1700s. The French people were suffering under an overpowering system of government, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen were a huge step forward for all of us. Merçi beaucoup, mille fois!
You didn’t really respond to my point about rationing in my earlier post, except to say that you were against it, since health care is a human right.
The problem is that health care, unlike abstract concepts like liberté, égalité, et fraternité, is actually a SERVICE that must be bought and paid for. That is why I included mundane examples like lollipops and teddy bears in my earlier post. Health care has a price tag, and just calling it a HUMAN RIGHT will not make that million-dollar CT scan machine appear for free.
Again, anything that is not free is rationed. Health care services always have been, and always will be, rationed! Either it is rationed by the individual/family, or it is rationed by the government. This is basic economics; it’s not something you can be for or against.
I’m in favor of individual freedom. Some others on this site are in favor of government control of our health decisions. That’s the difference.
Salut.
A. Farr, you and I must have been thinking the same thing at the same time. Thanks for expressing it so well in your 9:15 post. I was too busy trying to remember my French from college to explain it as well as you did. I think I need another cup of coffee.
Someday we will get our country’s health insurance problems fixed properly, instead of being ruined by a government takeover. Keep fighting the good fight!
Indy:
I know a LOT of older doctors…guys that have been in practice for decades..the guys that own their practices, own their buildings, have no significant debt, etc. Basically the kind of doctor you WANT to go to for their experience. They will leave the field if more involvement of the government occurs. They’ve been dealing with decreasing reimbursements, increased regulations and requirements for years, and are tired of it. I can’t afford to quit (the student loans), but I wouldn’t make the same choice now as I did 11 years ago to quit work and go back to school. And, to cut a common argument short…Doctors don’t make tons of money…compare salaries for most Primary Level physicians (Family Docs, Internists, Pediatricians, Psychiatrists, etc.) to what MBAs, Engineers, etc. make…considering that those doctors need 7+ years of Post College training to get where they are…I’ve got a couple of MBA holding relatives (2 years of post undergrad education needed) that make more than I do.
Neil mentioned above about “if we do create problems, I think we’ll be able to handle them.”…by the time the problems start, it will be too late. There will be a huge loss of quality in the health care field…and a huge loss in new technology and drugs. The simple fact that companies can make money under the US health care system drives the development of new drugs, new technologies, etc. Many of the anti-cancer drugs used today didn’t exist 20 years ago. They were developed by companies trying to make money…as a result lots of women (to use the example here) survive breast cancer that wouldn’t have back then. Many of these developments do come from other countries…but they work on them specifically to make money in the US market (there’s a Sanofi-Aventis plant not 25 miles from where I type…I’m in the US, and a French company is here to make money).
Independent,
“The problem is that health care, unlike abstract concepts like liberté, égalité, et
fraternité, is actually a SERVICE that must be bought and paid for.”
Are you sure concepts like liberte, egalite, et fraternite, or any other concept we base our values on for that matter, are abstract concepts that actually don’t cost us money? Are you sure we don’t pay money to turn them into a reality? I would say they cost us billions and billions of dollars. From police officers to judges, they all get paid for their services to our country. And I don’t think they would agree to SERVE us out of the kindness of their hearts. Not to mention the military. All the immates in correctional centers and prisons, we pay for them being there.
We pay our way to the country we want, to the service we consider fair and just. Believe me… nobody pays for an Equal Opportunity Employment Office under a dictartorship.
I think YOU KNOW that. You just don’t want to pay a penny for something you don’t believe in and I do. But, please, don’t say what you know it’s a lie.
A. Farr,
Overall, I think we need to agree to disagree. I believe that health care should be a right, not a privilege. I think that fundamentally sets us apart.
In response to a few other comments, like there will be a “huge loss in new technology and drugs” if we move forward with reform, I’d like to reply with a post I wrote a while ago. You may not like reading it b/c I greatly quote from a book author who is a former reporter, but I don’t have time to regurgitate his findings, I need to head out to the grocery store.
All Other Industrialized Democracies Insure Everybody - For Less $
http://www.truemajority.org/aggressiveprogressive/?p=306
Neil,
I won’t get too much into the first 5 “myths” that you posted about…they are arguable…Japan for instance requires everyone to be in the national health care system, and allows additional private insurance. When people compare the “Japanese” system (including your reporter), they often fail to mention that the public system is poor and the private system is what they are talking about….each of those “myths” has a counter argument (including the incredibly high tax rates in those countries to pay for the services).
The fourth “myth”, I covered above….the US is the profit center for most of the developments worldwide….it is what drives the development.
I’ve replied ad nauseam to the last two arguments in your post in a different forum, so I really don’t feel like posting several PAGES of counter arguments, so I’ll do the Cliff’s Notes version.
Infant Mortality: The US considers a child alive when born, some countries fudge the factors via only considering them alive when they leave the hospital. Other factors in our higher infant mortality include excess illegal drug use and lack of prenatal care (not specifically due to lack of health insurance as a lot of the Mothers would qualify for Medicaid).
Lower Life expectancy: Again it’s a matter of statistics (lies, damn lies and statistics). When comparing life expectancies, they include things like motor vehicle accidents (the US owns more vehicles per capita than any other country, and we drive a significant number more miles (or KM if you are in another country) than anyone else in the world), traumatic injuries (including gunshot wounds), etc. It also includes lifestyle risk factors such as obesity (the US has over 10% of our population as “Obese”….and far more that are merely overweight) which are prevalent in our society, and not as much as in others. If you look at specific diseases (that are not normally due to lifestyle choices), the US has a significantly better survival rate than the rest of the world for Breast Cancer and Prostate cancer. If you look at people over 50 years old (beyond a lot of the early risk factors like trauma, and tends to weight it towards the effects of medical care), the US has better life expectancy than most of the rest of the world.
Wow, Jill, you start off as a philosopher, and end by calling me a liar. It takes a certain type of arrogance to believe that everyone who disagrees with you must either be “brainwashed” or lying.
As for the philosophy, yes, even abstract concepts have a price when you enact them in the real world. But all that means is that liberté, égalité, et fraternité are also rationed in that sense. As A. Farr noted in his post, you don’t have a police officer assigned to you 24 hours a day, and sometimes an innocent man is held in jail overnight while he waits for a trial. No government is able to pay for all of the police protection, court system responsiveness, military presence, or equal employment investigators that people might want. You have to make compromises, and pay for as much as seems reasonable to the people of that country. In your words, “we pay our way to the country we want.”
So, let me say it again. Everything that has a price is rationed. Police officers. Military defenders. Firefighters. Judges. Health care. Housing. Food. Clothing. There is not an unlimited supply of anything to go around. Everything that has a price is rationed.
The question is, who does the rationing? For things that we all must share, like a court system, military and police protection, we all vote on the rationing, and it is carried out by the government. There is no way for one person to get, say, protection against a foreign country invading without all of us getting that protection.
For everything else, such as housing, food, clothing, health care, etc. we have the opportunity to make individual decisions. This is individual freedom. One overly-cautious person might want to spend money to get a mammogram in her late 30s, just to be sure. Someone else might not be as much of a hypochondriac, and put that money into building a business instead. Which one is right? That is up to the individual. The great thing about freedom is that we get to make our own choices.
So: in a free market, we “ration” our purchase choices ourselves. In a centrally-planned system, the government does the rationing for us. In France and England, for example, the governments have decided for financial reasons not to offer routine mammograms before age 50. I’d like to let women here make their own choices on when and how often they get mammograms.
And in general, I’d like to keep the individual and important decisions about health care in the hands of the individual, her family, and her doctors.
Independent,
Let me remind you of your two statements.
1. “The problem is that health care, unlike abstract concepts like liberté, égalité, et
fraternité, is actually a SERVICE that must be bought and paid for.”
2. “Yes, even abstract concepts have a price when you enact them in the real world.”
They both contradict each other. When somebody makes contradictory statements, it only can be for one of 3 things:
1. They lied (either the first or the second time)
2. They are trying to manipulate
3. They did not know the first time they spoke.
I am so arrogant that I did not think you did not know and I had to explain it to you.
Remember my statement? “I think YOU KNOW that.” And I still think you knew.
Mmmm. Let me see… your second statement contradicts your first one, and when I call you on it and ask you to, please, not to lie (Remember my statement: “But, please, don’t say what you know it’s a lie”) you feel so offended that you have to come to the conclusion I am an arrogant for actually catching it.
OK, independent.
Good luck.
I googled the cost of a mammogram:
“For an uninsured patient, typical full-price cost of a mammogram ranges from $80 to $120 or more, with an average of about $102, according to Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina. Some providers charge more, and some offer an uninsured discount. For example, at the Kapiolani Medical Center in Aiea, Hawaii, where the full price is about $212, an uninsured patient would pay about $127 to $148.”
She had insurance to cover the “catastrophic” cancer, but not the $80 mammogram which would have caught this problem early enough to (hopefully) save her life.
Ladies Please! Spend the 80 bucks out of your POCKET if you have to, just get tested. If you have enough money to “start your own business”, then for Pete’s Sake, go spend the lousy 80 bucks and get a test. We don’t need to lose anymore people from breast cancer. “Not having insurance is not an excuse , or having insurance but not wanting to use it is an even worse excuse. JUST DO IT. I’ll bet many of you pay more than 80 bucks a month for your internet/cell phone.
Budget for it. Get tested.
It pisses me off that people use the “health care debate” as an excuse to not get tested.
In many states it is LAW that an insurance company cover the cost of a mammogram
http://hrc.nwlc.org/Policy-Indicators/Addressing-Wellness-and-Prevention/Mammogram.aspx
Jill,
1. “The problem is that health care, unlike abstract concepts like liberté, égalité, et
fraternité, is actually a SERVICE that must be bought and paid for.”
2. “Yes, even abstract concepts have a price when you enact them in the real world.”
It appears you are somewhat blinded by your own beliefs. Statement #1 above says “health care is NOT an abstract concept”, Statement #2 above says “Even Abstract Concepts have their cost”. They are not contradictory.
Health Care is both a service…individuals provide guidance from their knowledge, and a consumer good…drugs, equipment use, etc. Someone has to pay for the individuals (like me) that provide the knowledge and guidance to a patient, and also to pay for the MRI machine or drugs I may order. Access to health care is a right. This debate devolves to who pays for the actual services and goods.
Abstract concepts such as liberty, equality, fraternity are bought and paid for through the efforts and often blood of the people that built their foundations….the cost for them isn’t normally measured in dollars but in the blood, sweat, and tears of those who paid dearly for them.
Frank:
That was my point well above…a $100 office visit and $100 mammogram might have saved Melanie’s life. The cost for the first year (early detection) of Breast Cancer will run just over $20k…including everything (initial detection, testing, surgery and/or radiation and/or chemo) , and for 5 years less than double that. That’s LESS than a lot of cars cost. Even if you don’t have health insurance, most hospitals will do the surgery and allow you to make payments….I’m sure everyone here agrees that Melanie Shouse’ life was worth well more than the costs of her treatment would have been (especially with early detection). Later detection costs significantly more for people that don’t get help early.
Jill,
A. Farr responded well, above, to your comments, but let me just add this:
I thought we were talking about health care in this thread! The whole point of the discussion you and I have been having is about whether health care must be rationed. You initially took the (incorrect) position that health care is not rationed in countries with government run health care: “Health is a HUMAN RIGHT, and as such, there is no rationing that can be considered valid.”
I was trying to respond to that specific point, by talking to you about basic economics. I showed you that health care, like everything that people buy and pay for, MUST be rationed — either by the government or by the individual consumer.
You never acknowledged that rationing of health care is inevitable. Instead, for some reason, you wanted to expand the discussion into whether abstract concepts like freedom are ever truly free. You said, essentially, that freedom, etc. has a cost also, and since we pay the monetary cost of freedom, we should pay the monetary cost of health care.
Instead of name calling, and arguing about tangents, it would be more helpful to this discussion if you would respond to the main point.
What is your answer to the rationing discussion in paragraphs 3-7 of my 9:42 p.m. post?
If she was a part of Obama’s campaign, why didn’t she have health insurance through her employer?
I am appalled by the comments from the anti-reformers.
Mike,
I don’t think there are any anti-reformers in these comments. We all agree that reforms are necessary. The question is which reforms are best for the people of this country.
I proposed a few important reforms in an earlier post: will you join me in fighting for these reforms?
[...] many of you read in David’s post, our friend, Melanie Shouse, died recently because her private insurer refused to cover her breast [...]
My suggestion before you decide….go visit
http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx#tableLinkDiv
and http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/08/12/us/politics/0812-plan-comparison.html#tab=7.
This covers off the current healthcare proposals. I myself am looking to purchase health insurance since being laid off from my job. But, I was shocked at what “government” issurance would cost me, compared to the plans I am currently looking at for me and my daughter. $300-$400 more per month! vs a go it alone approach. And according to the New York Times, the Out-Of_Pocket for individual is $5,000 and Family is $10,000!
I currently can get my isurance for less…..where is the affordability and lower premiums coming from for the government plan?
Yes, we need reform, but REAL reform that lower premiums and controls cost…..
I was looking and looking to find the age of this woman…I think I found that she is 37 years old. HELLO, INSURANCE DOES NOT PAY FOR MAMOGRAMS IF YOU ARE UNDER 40! As A Farr said, she went into denial, which is what many people do. It is simply easier to stick your head in the sand than deal with the reality that you may have breast cancer. Not wanting to shell out $200 is what killed her, not a lack of health care. And if she was educated enough to be running her own business, she surely should know that no woman in America has to go without having a mamogram. There are state and federal funds available for this procedure.
I do not want a nanny state controlling my life. I am in control of my life, I make my own decisions and I will live with the consequences. That is what makes America great. Do you think for one minute Canada would have covered any of her treatment? The cancer was so far gone by the time she sought treatment, they would have not wasted any money on her. What’s the point, she was going to die.
She already had a public option offered by the state of Missouri.
How did Missouri’s public health care plan fail her?
Yeah, but her auto insurance surely would have paid for oil changes and brake replacements, right?
Should not health insurance cover routine costs just like auto insurance does?
Belle: “The rest of your verbal diarrhea is not even worth noticing.”
Another winner! [GRIN]
These people are so predictable. Sigh…
@Independent: “Instead of name calling, and arguing about tangents, it would be more helpful to this discussion if you would respond to the main point.”
She won’t be back, Independent. This is just another liberal progressive tactic: evade the issue by changing the issue.
It is one leg of their modus operandi.
[...] issued by USAction’s online arm, TrueMajority. Melanie Shouse, an activist from St. Louis, died on Jan. 30 after succumbing to breast cancer. Her insurance provider denied her the coverage recommended by [...]
[...] his comments, McNary mentioned Melanie Shouse, the health care reform activist frequently mentioned on this blog – she died of breast cancer [...]